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  #61  
Old Jan 7th 2014, 11:54 AM
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Default Re: Nature of art

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I'd disagree with that one. I'd like to see Non Sequitur's take on it.



Without a doubt. Which is why a switch of terms to "morality" would be appropriate since that's where this is going.
I guess I was originally taught that ethics was "moral philosophy"

This isn't a completely well thought out proposal, but as I was musing on the difference between ethics and morality I came up with two things

1) Morality usually implies a much stronger appeal to authority and/or sense of obligation. Frequently this appeal to authority is religious so it takes the form of "X thing is wrong because the Divine (whatever that is) says so." For example, the argument over abortion usually goes "Abortion is wrong because all life is sacred to God." Without the appeal to God's authority, that argument doesn't make sense. Now, while morality is frequently religious in character, I think there a lot of examples of this kind of dogmatic appeal to authority in the secular realm as well. Specifically, it is often argued that loyality to the state is a kind of obligation that a citizen has. Frequently this argument is made based on the appeals to the authority of the state or patriotism.

Ethics, however, seems to me to based more on discovering right and wrong via some kind of philosophical inquiry. Ethics may start from a point of well established authority (for example Biblical ethics starts with the Bible), but it quickly goes beyond the immediate realm of that authority using some kind inquiry. Often this inquiry is rational inquiry found in the philophical method. So we have a proliferation of "ethics" based on philosophical debate. However, I think this inquiry is not limited to rational inquiry. For example, when the Lutheran pastor, Deitriech Bonhoeffer, was struggling with what do about Hitler during WWII he engaged in a rather extensive process of spiritual inquiry in order to try and figure out what was God's will. Simply quoting the 10 commandments was not enough for Bonhoeffer.

2) Simply put, morality seems to usually take the form of the negative. The 10 commandments are a good example: they all begin with "you shall not." Ethics seems to usually be concerned with positive along with the negative. Therefore, when Luther gives his explanation of the 10 commandments he not only explains what shouldn't be done, but also what should be done.

So conclusion: there can be secular ethics, religious ethics, religious morality, and secular morality. However, morality usually takes a more religious character because it is easier to make the appeal to authority in a religious system.
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  #62  
Old Jan 7th 2014, 11:55 AM
voiceoftheshires voiceoftheshires is offline
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Default Re: Nature of art

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Putting aside the implication that all art is "imitation"....

You've really never found that a landscape painting has highlighted aspects of a vista that you'd previously overlooked?
No the original is better for that
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  #63  
Old Jan 7th 2014, 12:00 PM
voiceoftheshires voiceoftheshires is offline
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Default Re: Nature of art

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Originally Posted by Non Sequitur View Post
I guess I was originally taught that ethics was "moral philosophy"

This isn't a completely well thought out proposal, but as I was musing on the difference between ethics and morality I came up with two things

1) Morality usually implies a much stronger appeal to authority and/or sense of obligation. Frequently this appeal to authority is religious so it takes the form of "X thing is wrong because the Divine (whatever that is) says so." For example, the argument over abortion usually goes "Abortion is wrong because all life is sacred to God." Without the appeal to God's authority, that argument doesn't make sense. Now, while morality is frequently religious in character, I think there a lot of examples of this kind of dogmatic appeal to authority in the secular realm as well. Specifically, it is often argued that loyality to the state is a kind of obligation that a citizen has. Frequently this argument is made based on the appeals to the authority of the state or patriotism.

Ethics, however, seems to me to based more on discovering right and wrong via some kind of philosophical inquiry. Ethics may start from a point of well established authority (for example Biblical ethics starts with the Bible), but it quickly goes beyond the immediate realm of that authority using some kind inquiry. Often this inquiry is rational inquiry found in the philophical method. So we have a proliferation of "ethics" based on philosophical debate. However, I think this inquiry is not limited to rational inquiry. For example, when the Lutheran pastor, Deitriech Bonhoeffer, was struggling with what do about Hitler during WWII he engaged in a rather extensive process of spiritual inquiry in order to try and figure out what was God's will. Simply quoting the 10 commandments was not enough for Bonhoeffer.

2) Simply put, morality seems to usually take the form of the negative. The 10 commandments are a good example: they all begin with "you shall not." Ethics seems to usually be concerned with positive along with the negative. Therefore, when Luther gives his explanation of the 10 commandments he not only explains what shouldn't be done, but also what should be done.

So conclusion: there can be secular ethics, religious ethics, religious morality, and secular morality. However, morality usually takes a more religious character because it is easier to make the appeal to authority in a religious system.
So you claim, but to date there is no coherent ethical philosophy that doesn't quickly reduce either to rules of the tribe or fashion, if those are different things.
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  #64  
Old Jan 7th 2014, 12:01 PM
voiceoftheshires voiceoftheshires is offline
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Default Re: Nature of art

OK, as I am of such a generous and helpful disposition I'm going to help you all out.

The ethical is not a theory or a set of rules
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  #65  
Old Jan 7th 2014, 12:03 PM
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Default Re: Nature of art

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So you claim, but to date there is no coherent ethical philosophy that doesn't quickly reduce either to rules of the tribe or fashion, if those are different things.
Which is a good point. Certainly at some point there is a kind of appeal to authority. Morality just seems to never get beyond the appeal to authority.

I'm not sure the two things are different either, but that is what I came up with if I had to state a difference.
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  #66  
Old Jan 7th 2014, 12:33 PM
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Default Re: Nature of art

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No the original is better for that
I see. Well then, I'm sorry that you apparently are unable to partake of that particular benefit of experiencing art. You have my sympathy. I urge you to strive for it if you can, as it's a thing enjoyed and treasured by so many people.
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  #67  
Old Jan 7th 2014, 12:33 PM
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Default Re: Nature of art

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There is no coherent secular theory of ethics, such is just those that haunt God's bones
Ah. So God is dead.
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  #68  
Old Jan 7th 2014, 01:20 PM
voiceoftheshires voiceoftheshires is offline
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Default Re: Nature of art

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I see. Well then, I'm sorry that you apparently are unable to partake of that particular benefit of experiencing art. You have my sympathy. I urge you to strive for it if you can, as it's a thing enjoyed and treasured by so many people.
Thank you and I feel sorry that you are are only able to appreciate true beauty in pale imitation
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  #69  
Old Jan 7th 2014, 01:30 PM
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Default Re: Nature of art

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Thank you and I feel sorry that you are are only able to appreciate true beauty in pale imitation
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  #70  
Old Jan 7th 2014, 01:36 PM
voiceoftheshires voiceoftheshires is offline
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Default Re: Nature of art

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Ah. So God is dead.
That is not implied since to suggest it is assumes human properties apply to God, which is false
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