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Old Sep 1st 2011, 12:07 PM
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Default Re: Measles Making a Comeback

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I actually think Romney is uncomfortable with such views, but feels as though he has to pander to those people. The person who is a favorite currently and seems to fully embrace the anti-science view is Rick Perry.
Rick Perry is the favorite now? Yikes.

But yeah, I agree with you that Romney or any more moderate GOP candidate is sort of obligated to pander to those with an attitude of "I'm just as good at doin' science shit as any science-guy!"
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Old Sep 1st 2011, 12:14 PM
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Default Re: Measles Making a Comeback

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Rick Perry is the favorite now? Yikes.

But yeah, I agree with you that Romney or any more moderate GOP candidate is sort of obligated to pander to those with an attitude of "I'm just as good at doin' science shit as any science-guy!"
Yes, or the view that scientists are all involved in some sort of conspiracy to trash the bible, ruin the economy, and institute socialist world government.
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Old Sep 1st 2011, 12:18 PM
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Default Re: Measles Making a Comeback

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Rick Perry is the favorite now? Yikes.

But yeah, I agree with you that Romney or any more moderate GOP candidate is sort of obligated to pander to those with an attitude of "I'm just as good at doin' science shit as any science-guy!"
Yeah apparently he's pulled ahead in some polls. Good for Obama, though.
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Old Sep 1st 2011, 12:28 PM
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Default Re: Measles Making a Comeback

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Yes, or the view that scientists are all involved in some sort of conspiracy to trash the bible, ruin the economy, and institute socialist world government.
It makes me wonder how something like the anti-vaccine movement breaks down demographically in terms of politics. I tend to associate new age, pseudo-science claptrap more with the left (and anti-vaccination or, really, anything anti-modern medicine/anti-pharma falls into that category) whereas I associate the belief that scientists are involved in some sort of conspiracy with the right. I wonder if this is an example of true bi-partisan nuttery.
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Old Sep 1st 2011, 12:29 PM
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Default Re: Measles Making a Comeback

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Yeah apparently he's pulled ahead in some polls. Good for Obama, though.
I think the only question at this point, barring some major game changer, is how much will Obama win by. Palin/Perry/Bachmann means landslide and a moderate candidate means narrower victory. GOP just seems to have no marketable vision right now except anger and hysterics -- where's the "morning in America" candidate?
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Old Sep 1st 2011, 02:11 PM
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Default Re: Measles Making a Comeback

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It makes me wonder how something like the anti-vaccine movement breaks down demographically in terms of politics. I tend to associate new age, pseudo-science claptrap more with the left (and anti-vaccination or, really, anything anti-modern medicine/anti-pharma falls into that category) whereas I associate the belief that scientists are involved in some sort of conspiracy with the right. I wonder if this is an example of true bi-partisan nuttery.

It think it is bi-partisan. It is a matter of ideology preventing someone from accepting information that contradicts deeply held convictions, left or right. There have been some studies done on this and depressingly it shows that the more contradictory facts they are given on a subject the more entrenched they become in their ideology... they can't even be educated. I suppose this afflicts us all to a degree or another, but i just don't see how science can be denied, even when we don't like the results, or don't like how it forces society to behave in certain ways that are not always good. I find it infuriating that people can deny basic empirical realities like the effectiveness of vaccination...
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Old Sep 1st 2011, 02:21 PM
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Default Re: Measles Making a Comeback

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It think it is bi-partisan. It is a matter of ideology preventing someone from accepting information that contradicts deeply held convictions, left or right. There have been some studies done on this and depressingly it shows that the more contradictory facts they are given on a subject the more entrenched they become in their ideology... they can't even be educated. I suppose this afflicts us all to a degree or another, but i just don't see how science can be denied, even when we don't like the results, or don't like how it forces society to behave in certain ways that are not always good. I find it infuriating that people can deny basic empirical realities like the effectiveness of vaccination...
I'm familiar with the "familiarity bias" concept. I actually read an article the other day exploring the reason for the phenomenon and it offered an interesting perspective.

It suggested that there is actually a kind of ironic rationality to rejecting notions that interfere with one's own dogma, from an evolutionary sort of perspective. Specifically, it said that you spend a lifetime building up the belief system that you have, and only a moment having a hole poked neatly in it (assuming that one's beliefs are wrong). Forget for a moment whether your perspective is right or wrong -- is it rational to toss out your lifetime of experience for a new piece of information?

I say evolutionary because I believe the idea is part of what allowed humans to involve into intelligent beings (though it seems to be having the opposite now). If you're running around on the Savannah 100,000 years ago you've learned over the course of your lifetime to avoid tigers. If one of your tribe-mates comes to you and shows you a tiger cub and grunt-explains that he has empirical evidence that tigers are not, in fact, dangerous, listening to him is likely to get you mauled next time you're out on the hunt.

Problem is, we've advanced so much that a preponderance of new developments are difficult to understand, if not outright counter-intuitive.
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Old Sep 1st 2011, 02:24 PM
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Default Re: Measles Making a Comeback

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Originally Posted by drgoodtrips View Post
Rick Perry is the favorite now? Yikes.

But yeah, I agree with you that Romney or any more moderate GOP candidate is sort of obligated to pander to those with an attitude of "I'm just as good at doin' science shit as any science-guy!"
Huntsman is still in there. http://www.politico.com/blogs/politi...nce_party.html

Of course he's in single digits...so perhaps that just proves your point.
:::sigh:::
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Old Sep 1st 2011, 02:51 PM
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Default Re: Measles Making a Comeback

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Huntsman is still in there. http://www.politico.com/blogs/politi...nce_party.html

Of course he's in single digits...so perhaps that just proves your point.
:::sigh:::
Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking. Of the candidates on the GOP side, he's the only one that intrigued me, but I fear that having sane positions on issues is not a strength in the GOP political climate of 2012. The voting pool at large seems like it wants regressive rather than pragmatic and reasoned.

Perhaps Huntsman could shoot up in the polls with a bold stance that vaccinations are a homosexual, evolutionist plot against Christianity and that they cause abortions.
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Old Sep 1st 2011, 04:11 PM
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Default Re: Measles Making a Comeback

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Originally Posted by drgoodtrips View Post
I'm familiar with the "familiarity bias" concept. I actually read an article the other day exploring the reason for the phenomenon and it offered an interesting perspective.

It suggested that there is actually a kind of ironic rationality to rejecting notions that interfere with one's own dogma, from an evolutionary sort of perspective. Specifically, it said that you spend a lifetime building up the belief system that you have, and only a moment having a hole poked neatly in it (assuming that one's beliefs are wrong). Forget for a moment whether your perspective is right or wrong -- is it rational to toss out your lifetime of experience for a new piece of information?

I say evolutionary because I believe the idea is part of what allowed humans to involve into intelligent beings (though it seems to be having the opposite now). If you're running around on the Savannah 100,000 years ago you've learned over the course of your lifetime to avoid tigers. If one of your tribe-mates comes to you and shows you a tiger cub and grunt-explains that he has empirical evidence that tigers are not, in fact, dangerous, listening to him is likely to get you mauled next time you're out on the hunt.

Problem is, we've advanced so much that a preponderance of new developments are difficult to understand, if not outright counter-intuitive.

There is also the dunning-krueger effect which shows that people who lack knowledge in a certain subject are more likely to overestimate their knowledge, whereas experts in a certain subject are more likely to underestimate their knowledge. This is why on topics like vaccination or evolution or climate change you have so many people who think they are experts, but clearly know next to nothing of what they are talking about, and when experts discuss it they are ever so cautious not to make any statements of absolute certainty.

Maybe science needs a PR and marketing firm.... so few scientists make effective public speakers.
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