Discussion World Forum  


Go Back   Discussion World Forum > Discussion Forums > Environment

Environment Climate Change, Pollution, Endangered Species, Industrial Agriculture, Degrading Habitats & Renewable Energy.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old May 12th 2011, 10:12 AM
Daktoria's Avatar
Daktoria Daktoria is offline
World Citizen
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 721
Default Re: Enviropessimism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donkey View Post
Sorry, that link doesn't prove shit.

Try this one on: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/environmentalist

Edit: my point being that you are necessarily complicating things.
Even a basic definition proves the point because you're begging the question over what a "resource" is if people aren't allowed to use resources freely.

Why you're saying my links don't prove shit though, I don't understand. They show how you need aesthetics to make environmental judgments.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old May 12th 2011, 10:13 AM
Daktoria's Avatar
Daktoria Daktoria is offline
World Citizen
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 721
Default Re: Enviropessimism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donkey View Post
I am not saying that aesthetic is not a motivator. But YOU are claiming that it is the only factor. Which is bull.
Well that's deduction. You look for alternatives, and if there aren't any, then you draw a conclusion.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old May 12th 2011, 10:15 AM
Donkey's Avatar
Donkey Donkey is offline
Official Forum Mascot
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 7,771
Default Re: Enviropessimism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daktoria View Post
Even a basic definition proves the point because you're begging the question over what a "resource" is if people aren't allowed to use resources freely.
Begging the question doesn't mean what you think it means.

Quote:
Why you're saying my links don't prove shit though, I don't understand. They show how you need aesthetics to make environmental judgments.
Some of the most integral parts of an ecosystem are invisible to the naked eye. How is it a matter of aesthetics to want to save them.

And if you're talking about polar bears on the covers of organic granola bars... that's called marketing.
__________________
"It is essential that there should be organization of labor. This is an era of organization. Capital organizes and therefore labor must organize."
Theodore Roosevelt
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old May 12th 2011, 10:17 AM
Donkey's Avatar
Donkey Donkey is offline
Official Forum Mascot
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 7,771
Default Re: Enviropessimism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daktoria View Post
Well that's deduction. You look for alternatives, and if there aren't any, then you draw a conclusion.
Just because the only concept YOU have of environmentalism is "that tree is pretty" doesn't mean it's the only alternative.
__________________
"It is essential that there should be organization of labor. This is an era of organization. Capital organizes and therefore labor must organize."
Theodore Roosevelt
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old May 12th 2011, 10:21 AM
Daktoria's Avatar
Daktoria Daktoria is offline
World Citizen
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 721
Default Re: Enviropessimism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donkey View Post
Begging the question doesn't mean what you think it means.
What do you think I think it means?

Begging the question involves assuming your conclusion in your premise which is exactly what environmentalism does because it assumes proper organization of resources.

Quote:
Some of the most integral parts of an ecosystem are invisible to the naked eye. How is it a matter of aesthetics to want to save them.
Well the environment doesn't let you "see" those parts, does it?

That's the problem with environmentalism. In order to investigate the environment to discover its identity, you have to change it in some way.

Quote:
Just because the only concept YOU have of environmentalism is "that tree is pretty" doesn't mean it's the only alternative.
Fine, give me an alternative. Prove your point.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old May 12th 2011, 10:24 AM
Donkey's Avatar
Donkey Donkey is offline
Official Forum Mascot
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 7,771
Default Re: Enviropessimism

Try actually READING Andrew's posts on the subject.
__________________
"It is essential that there should be organization of labor. This is an era of organization. Capital organizes and therefore labor must organize."
Theodore Roosevelt
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old May 12th 2011, 10:30 AM
Daktoria's Avatar
Daktoria Daktoria is offline
World Citizen
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 721
Default Re: Enviropessimism

I am, believe me, I am, and I sympathize with a lot of what he's saying.

The problem is that emotional sympathy doesn't yield ethics. That's what makes life valuable - thought.

If emotions made life valuable, then there'd be no reason to even recognize life as existing because emotions are naturally driven. How you feel is not something that's in your control even if you can control your perspective encouraged by believing a certain perspective will result in a different emotion.

If we premised ethics on emotions, then acknowledging nature by itself would be satisfactory. We wouldn't have to acknowledge life at all. Heck, we could abuse each other all we want in order to experience as much emotion as possible,
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old May 12th 2011, 10:44 AM
Donkey's Avatar
Donkey Donkey is offline
Official Forum Mascot
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 7,771
Default Re: Enviropessimism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daktoria View Post
I am, believe me, I am, and I sympathize with a lot of what he's saying.

The problem is that emotional sympathy doesn't yield ethics. That's what makes life valuable - thought.

If emotions made life valuable, then there'd be no reason to even recognize life as existing because emotions are naturally driven. How you feel is not something that's in your control even if you can control your perspective encouraged by believing a certain perspective will result in a different emotion.

If we premised ethics on emotions, then acknowledging nature by itself would be satisfactory. We wouldn't have to acknowledge life at all. Heck, we could abuse each other all we want in order to experience as much emotion as possible,
You're projecting your self-constructed ethical system on everyone else, which is unjustified.
__________________
"It is essential that there should be organization of labor. This is an era of organization. Capital organizes and therefore labor must organize."
Theodore Roosevelt
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old May 12th 2011, 11:00 AM
Daktoria's Avatar
Daktoria Daktoria is offline
World Citizen
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 721
Default Re: Enviropessimism

What I'm doing is being openminded and looking for an alternative that doesn't seem contradicting.

Please, I'm not trying to be a troll or judgmental here. As a matter of rejecting projection, you have to understand that not all personalities communicate the same way.

Just relax and tell me what you're thinking. That's all.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old May 12th 2011, 11:02 AM
Donkey's Avatar
Donkey Donkey is offline
Official Forum Mascot
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 7,771
Default Re: Enviropessimism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daktoria View Post
What I'm doing is being openminded and looking for an alternative that doesn't seem contradicting.

Please, I'm not trying to be a troll or judgmental here. As a matter of rejecting projection, you have to understand that not all personalities communicate the same way.

Just relax and tell me what you're thinking. That's all.
Ethics systems are entirely constructed. Environmentalists view preservation, or non-interference in the global ecosystem as a moral imperative. It need not be based on the fact that trees are nice to look at.

Indeed, probably the basis of the morality is sustainability.
__________________
"It is essential that there should be organization of labor. This is an era of organization. Capital organizes and therefore labor must organize."
Theodore Roosevelt
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:59 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008 - 2017, DiscussionWorldForum.com